Good Loving Incest vs. Bad abusive Incest. The
Bible has both.
On the web you can find both sides of the story. Stories of
very loving and caring love relation and lover inside the family and stories of
the opposite. So to say all incest relationships are bad or all are good, would
be a false conclusion.
But the
government assumes incest is
abusive and sends some people to jail.
As far as the
Bible goes, Christians are basically under the
Age of Grace, the "Law of Love" not under the (Leviticus 18) old testament laws nor a list of do's and don't laws nor under the Age of the Law. These
special laws were for a special time, special people, to solve special problems
of the day.
Mother-son incest represents 10 percent of the incidence and is 70 percent
positive, 20 percent mixed, and 10 percent negative for the son. For the mother
it is mostly positive. Farrell points out the boys don't seem to suffer, not
even from the negative experience.
The father-daughter scene, ineluctably complicated by feelings of dominance and control, is
not nearly so sanguine. Despite some advertisments, calling explicitly for
positive female experiences, Farrell discovered that 85 percent of the
daughters admitted to having negative attitudes toward their incest. Only 15
percent felt positive about the experience. On the other hand, statistics from
the vantage of the fathers involved were almost the reverse -- 60 percent
positive, 20 percent negative. "Either men see these relationships
differently," comments Farrell, "or I am getting selective reporting
from women."
Girls are much
more influenced by the dictates of society and are more willing to take on
sexual guilt."
Incredible? Impossible? Insane? Well, just such a
father-daughter case happened in New York City. A forty-two-year-old Jewish
writer, contentedly married for twenty years, phoned Farrell after reading his
ad and related the following story.
Two years
ago the writer happened to be at his beach house alone with his attractive
fifteen-year-old daughter. He watched her strip out of her bikini -- nudity was
not unusual in the family -- and fantasized about having sex with her while she
showered. His wife's appendix operation had curtailed his sex for the previous
five months. This day the women on the beach and a few beers had led him into
special temptation. When the daughter emerged from the bathroom in a towel, he
greeted her in the nude and erect. Although he had never consciously desired incest
before, he told his daughter that he missed sex. Without further prompting she
fellated him to orgasm. Then she cried until he assured her that they hadn't
done anything wrong; he asked her not to tell her mother.
Two weeks later
the daughter walked around the house naked until the father approached her.
That day he deflowered her to their mutual satisfaction. But the father was
careful not to push things. He did not want to hurt his daughter, who seemed to
have an active sex life with boys her own age. Several weeks later the daughter
took the initiative again, this time with a girl friend as a third party. This
threesome was the most exciting sex the father had ever had. Soon the father
and daughter were having intercourse three times a week, repairing to motels
with their secret passion. When they were six months into the incest, the wife
unexpectedly returned to the apartment from shopping and caught the pair in the
act. Despite some initial hysteria, the wife okayed everything. Apparently she
was relieved that her husband's strong sexual demands could be met at home
rather than with hookers, and she hinted that she'd like to watch the two of
them in bed. When the writer talked with Farrell, the incest had been ongoing
for two years. The father is enjoying himself immensely, and he says that his
daughter prefers his expertise to the groping of her boyfriends, who just want
to be "deepthroated." The writer insists that they're both much
better friends now that before.
Brother /Sister Incest
Relations
Brother-sister relations are attended by fewer complications, since domination is not
a factor. Farrell recounted the history of a twenty-five-year-old woman who had
happily slept with her older brother for two years until he left home, four
years ago, to get married. Today they talk on the phone every week and remain
very close. The woman has no regrets and regards her incest as one of the best
sexual experiences of her life.
She began the long
seduction of her brother at the age of thirteen or fourteen, prancing around
their suburban New York home with her robe open. The tease progressed to
leaving her bedroom door open while she was undressed. Apparently, the brother
ignored these early invitations but later reciprocated with exhibitionism of
his own. When she was eighteen, the girl started masturbating in bed, naked and
with the door ajar. The brother responded by simltaneously masturbating in his
own room. Soon they were masturbating together and performing oral sex. In a
few weeks they engaged in sexual intercourse for the first time.
The sister was turned on to making love with a mirror image
of herself. Breaking the taboo only heightened her pleasure. They had sex twice
a week for the duration of their liason, often dipping into fantasies and
Polaroid pornography. The brother once watched her make love to another man;
another time he looked on as she exercised in the nude with a girl friend. On
both occasions he made love to her immediately afterward. Their familial
arguments ceased during the affair, and they became the best of friends. The
sister now feels the incest helped in overcoming her inhibitions, though she
and her brother had an active sex life with other partners while they were
involved. They have slept together only once since her brother married.
See below for more.
Inkaboutit
comment:
I had a girl
friend that
loved physical touch, hugs and kisses and sex. She had a high sex drive. Her
sister had a much lower sex drive and less desire to be touched and be
physical. Her father had sex with both and the low sex drive daughter told
someone and the father when to jail for one year.
Even though my girl friend enjoyed the loving, hugs, kisses
and sex; the man, make, society made,
guilt of thinking she was doing something wrong because she could not
tell anyone, caused guilt.
Conclusion by a young girl is that if we must keep it a
major secret, then it must be wrong and therefore must be guilty of wrong
doing, even though it felt so good and she enjoyed doing it a lot and it
created a lot of love for her. This is what brings the battle in the mind. The
church, society, and government create this man made guilt
One
example mental abuse: "A few years ago (on a talk show) a 16 year old boy
said when he was 13 he had an affair with a female school custodian that lasted
two years. He later stated that while it lasted it was great--he loved every
second.... Well--his parents threw a fit. Boy was sent to a shrink and is told
he was abused. A year of conditioning later he sits on this talk show and says
what a horrible thing this woman did to him--and still stated that he thought
it was great while it lasted--he didn't know he was being abused at the time.
Now who the hell I ask you caused the damage here?" from http://www.libchrist.com/bible/child.html
For hundreds of
years there were no rules against loving sexual incest. We know Adam and Eve and their children
all had lots of incest, as well as Noah families, after the flood, when each
couple went in different directions and each couple and their children all had
lots of incest to multiply the earth. There was not any rules saying anything was wrong with
loving sexual incest at all. Then Moses wrote laws to solve some practical
problems of the special time, the Age of the Law, for a special group of Jewish
people.
The practical problem because of great distance and
isolation from other people, there was for many generations, there was a lots
of incest, making babies, (no birth control of any kind); as a result, the gene
pool was getting smaller and smaller causing birth defect problems. So to solve
the special problem, they make a rule of no more making babies with very close
relations, which are spelled out in Leviticus 18(NLT)
Today we do not
have continuous generations of making babies with very close relations, if we did this same problem could be solved with condoms and
modern birth control, or tie your tubes, which prevents births to very close
relations. Sexual relations was only the issue in Lev 18, because they had no
birth control at all, Not a sexual issues, but the many generation of making
babies from close relations or sex with no birth controls, and causing
major birth defect and even new
races of people when they are isolated. The other issue was permission from the
owner of the women. Don't steal or use the other man property unless he gives
permission. Similar to Ex 21:4 where master would loan a servant one of his
wives or concubine that he owned. Women were the property of some man.
Scientist today
explain, starting with one man, one women in isolation, that it takes about 8 consecutive generations in
isolation of continuous incest to create a new race of people. Similar to
whenever a man and women leave their present society and become isolated and
start a new society by incest relations, 8 generations later there will be a
new race of people.
Incest in the
Bible was naturally reduced because they sold the daughter for money
and a virgin daughter make a lot more money, then a non-virgin daughter did. Also the men could buy many
wives and concubines and there were many non-cultic prostitutes they could get
to satisfy their sexual needs. They would keep there own daughters virgins so
they could make more money. Don't forget the context was they had no birth
control of any kind. Sexuality is not evil, God make it and said it was very
good. (Gen 1:31)
Ge 1:31 -
Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.
...(Note: God designed our human nature, every detail of our natural sexuality,
and said it was all very good. The only bad part of us is what we added, the
"sin principal" part.)
But what people do is turn their brain
off and become very unloving, legalistic and blindly follow rules with out
thinking why. Why was there no rules or problems about loving incest for
hundreds of years? Then they make some rule to solve special problem thousands
of years ago (they had no birth control, or condoms, or tying of the tubes),
and we just follow the same rules today blindly without thinking why.
Today we are under one rule,
the "rule of Love". The whole law is fulfill in one law,
to love your neighbor as you love yourself. That is the basic law Christians
are under. Some people want to go back and pick and choose different laws in
the Old Testament to follow and say we have to follow these law and don't have
to follow though other laws. They become god themselves and picking and
choosing. We are not under any of those laws; we are mainly under one law, the
law of love.
Jas 2:12 – "So whenever you speak, or whatever you do,
remember that you will be judged by the law of love, the law that set you free."
Ro 13:9 – "For the commandments against adultery and
murder and stealing and coveting – and any other commandment – are all summed
up in this one commandment: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Sexual desire, and sexual love is not evil, God designed and
said it was very good. (Gen 1:31)
Just like everything else we need to apply the law of love to it.
Incest in the Bible http://inkaboutit.homestead.com/incinthebible.html
But for a government to blindly
declare that all incest love and sex is evil and even try to explain to people
that there loving and fun sex with a relation was bad or adusive when it was
not, and send people to jail is
way over broad and mindless to say the least. They are mindlessly following
some law make thousands of years ago without asking why. There are many laws on
the law books that are totally ignored. Again they pick and choose which ones
they want to enforce.
The real problem is not loving incest itself, but the lack
of love and understanding how to love and understand people. People have
different sexual desires. Some people's love language is "physical"
touch, hugs and kisses etc and they greatly love to be physical with a lover.
Others, this is not their major love language.
Then there are others that have a low sex drive, low
hormones, and little or no desire to be physical or touch another person.
So the "physical love language" one may love a loving
passionate incest relation, if done with the right person, in the right way,
and take slowly to check responses and desires of the other person, just like
in any other lover relationship.
Also when for generations a society brainwashes every
one that loving incest is evil, because they think sex is evil, then how do you
overcome that mental brainwashing? It becomes mental abuse or mental torment,
and not sex abuse or physical abuse.
But because of legalistic Church and society, that are blindly
follow a long list of laws that don't apply for today. Also a government that
is blindly following outdated laws and send people to jail, everyone that has a
lover in the close relation family has to keep it top secret from everyone. The
Internet lets some of the secret stories of great family lovers come out in the
open, as well as the bad ones.
One
example mental abuse: "A few years ago
(on a talk show) a 16 year old boy said when he was 13 he had an affair with a
female school custodian that lasted two years. He later stated that while it
lasted it was great--he loved every second.... Well--his parents threw a fit.
Boy was sent to a shrink and is told he was abused. A year of conditioning
later he sits on this talk show and says what a horrible thing this woman did
to him--and still stated that he thought it was great while it lasted--he
didn't know he was being abused at the time. Now who the hell I ask you caused
the damage here?" from
http://www.libchrist.com/bible/child.html
Take the time to see both sides of the story. There many great love
stories and some that do not love. Just like marriage, there are good marriages
and bad one, but we do not make laws and send the bad marriage to jail. What if
we send all bad marriage to jail? Then what?
As my girl
friend told me the story, I did not know what to think. I first thought, that
it must have been a lot of fun and I wish my mother seduced me and I would have
had a lot of fun being my mother's lover.
But then when she told me that her father went to jail, I thought,
how bad for her not to have her loving father around. I never heard my girl
friend ever complain about her father as her lover and she taught me a lot
about loving women the right way. She was my "teacher"; she was good,
too.
But her sister did not have the same feeling about it. So you have
it, 2 sisters, one enjoying the physical loving from her father, and the other
one, it was a major problem and the father goes to jail.
Both had guilt, but my girlfriend loved the hugs, kisses,
and sexual pleasure that she could live with any guilt that came along with the
great joy and pleasure. But her sister with a much lower sex drive, low desire
to be hug or kisses or have sex, the guilt overcame her and no pleasure for
her, she disliked the whole thing and told someone about it.
Of course there are other issues, like jealousies of others.
A person could have a wonderful loving incest relation that both are greatly
enjoying and then they are caught. A jealous spouse turns it over to the police
and they send the person to jail for child abuse. When the child greatly loves
it and is brainwashed to think that it was bad and that she was being abused.
Also told that her lover was a bad person and needs to go to jail for being bad.
Parts
from http://inkaboutit.homestead.com/inarticlepositive.html
(go to site to read the whole thing)
by
Philip Nobile (as originally published in Penthouse, December 1977 issue)
Incest
would be just another media trend, faddishly seduced and abandoned after
repealed use, were it not for two forthcoming studies that promise to turn the
prohibition on its head. Both introduce and uphold the notion of "positive
incest", an especially dissonant oxymoron that will madden therapists and
confuse the masses more than the Kinsey reports did twenty-five years ago. Actually, Kinsey was the first sex researcher to uncover
evidence that violation of the taboo does not necessarily shake heaven and
earth. Unpublished data taken from his original sex histories (some
18,000 in number) imply that lying with a near
relative rarely ends in tragedy. "In our basic sample, the is, our random
sample, only a tiny percentage of our incest cases had been reported to police
or psychologists," states Kinsey collaborator Dr. Paul Gebhard,
currently directory of the Institute for Sex Research in Bloomington, Ind. "In fact, in the ones that were not reported, I'm having
a hard time recalling any traumatic effects at all. I certainly can't recall
any form among the brother-sister participants, and I can't put my finger on
any among the parent-child participants."…
The
idea for the book struck him after reading a Times article about incest early
last year. According to the piece, only a tiny fraction of the cases ever
reaches the courts. In 1976 New York City police
received merely one incest complaint and no arrests.
Mother-son incest represents 10 percent of the incidence and is 70 percent
positive, 20 percent mixed, and 10 percent negative for the son. For the mother
it is mostly positive. Farrell points out the boys don't seem to suffer, not
even from the negative experience.
The father-daughter scene, ineluctably complicated by feelings of dominance and control, is
not nearly so sanguine. Despite some advertisments, calling explicitly for
positive female experiences, Farrell discovered that 85 percent of the
daughters admitted to having negative attitudes toward their incest. Only 15
percent felt positive about the experience. On the other hand, statistics from
the vantage of the fathers involved were almost the reverse -- 60 percent
positive, 20 percent negative. "Either men see these relationships
differently," comments Farrell, "or I am getting selective reporting
from women."
Girls are much
more influenced by the dictates of society and are more willing to take on
sexual guilt."
Typical Traumatic
Case
In a typical traumatic case, an authoritarian father,
unhappily married in a sexually repressed houshold and probably unemployed,
drunkenly imposes himself on his young daughter. Genital petting may have
started as early as age eight with first intercourse occurring around twelve.
Since the father otherwise extends very little attention to his daughter, his
sexual advances may be one of the few pleasant experiences she has with him. If
she is unaware of society's taboo and if the mother does not intervene, she has
no reason to suspect the enormity of the aberration. But when she grows up and
learns of the taboo, she feels cheapened. If she comes from the lower class,
she may turn to prostitution or drugs as compensation for self-worthlessness,
although a direct cause-effect link is far from certain. The trauma is spread
through all classes, Farrell observes, but incest is more likely to be negative
in the lower class.
Two years
ago the writer happened to be at his beach house alone with his attractive
fifteen-year-old daughter. He watched her strip out of her bikini -- nudity was
not unusual in the family -- and fantasized about having sex with her while she
showered. His wife's appendix operation had curtailed his sex for the previous
five months. This day the women on the beach and a few beers had led him into
special temptation. When the daughter emerged from the bathroom in a towel, he
greeted her in the nude and erect. Although he had never consciously desired incest
before, he told his daughter that he missed sex. Without further prompting she
fellated him to orgasm. Then she cried until he assured her that they hadn't
done anything wrong; he asked her not to tell her mother.
Two weeks later
the daughter walked around the house naked until the father approached her.
That day he deflowered her to their mutual satisfaction. But the father was
careful not to push things. He did not want to hurt his daughter, who seemed to
have an active sex life with boys her own age. Several weeks later the daughter
took the initiative again, this time with a girl friend as a third party. This
threesome was the most exciting sex the father had ever had. Soon the father
and daughter were having intercourse three times a week, repairing to motels
with their secret passion. When they were six months into the incest, the wife
unexpectedly returned to the apartment from shopping and caught the pair in the
act. Despite some initial hysteria, the wife okayed everything. Apparently she
was relieved that her husband's strong sexual demands could be met at home
rather than with hookers, and she hinted that she'd like to watch the two of
them in bed. When the writer talked with Farrell, the incest had been ongoing
for two years. The father is enjoying himself immensely, and he says that his
daughter prefers his expertise to the groping of her boyfriends, who just want
to be "deepthroated." The writer insists that they're both much
better friends now that before.
Brother /Sister
Relations
Brother-sister relations are attended by fewer complications, since domination is not
a factor. Farrell recounted the history of a twenty-five-year-old woman who had
happily slept with her older brother for two years until he left home, four
years ago, to get married. Today they talk on the phone every week and remain
very close. The woman has no regrets and regards her incest as one of the best
sexual experiences of her life.
She began the long
seduction of her brother at the age of thirteen or fourteen, prancing around
their suburban New York home with her robe open. The tease progressed to
leaving her bedroom door open while she was undressed. Apparently, the brother
ignored these early invitations but later reciprocated with exhibitionism of
his own. When she was eighteen, the girl started masturbating in bed, naked and
with the door ajar. The brother responded by simltaneously masturbating in his
own room. Soon they were masturbating together and performing oral sex. In a
few weeks they engaged in sexual intercourse for the first time.
The sister was turned on to making love with a mirror image
of herself. Breaking the taboo only heightened her pleasure. They had sex twice
a week for the duration of their liason, often dipping into fantasies and
Polaroid pornography. The brother once watched her make love to another man;
another time he looked on as she exercised in the nude with a girl friend. On
both occasions he made love to her immediately afterward. Their familial
arguments ceased during the affair, and they became the best of friends. The
sister now feels the incest helped in overcoming her inhibitions, though she
and her brother had an active sex life with other partners while they were
involved. They have slept together only once since her brother married.
Part
of: Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology --- Part of
:Immorality, Sexual
Genetic Pool and
Incest.
"For
modern observers, however, the greatest danger by far would have resulted from
the pollution of the genetic pool because of inbreeding. The bulk of the
relationships prohibited by the legislation involved first and second degrees
of consanguinity, that is, parent-child and grandparent-grandchild incest. Coition
within the forbidden degrees of family relationships generally results in
genetic complications when offspring are produced. Recessive genes often become
dominant and endow the fetus with various kinds of diseases or congenital
malformations. This seems to have been the force of the Hebrew tebel [l,b,T], a
word that occurs only in Leviticus 18:23 and 20:12. It comes from balal
[l;l'B], meaning "to confuse, " and conveys aptly the genetic
upheaval that occurs in many cases of inbreeding, since God's rules for
procreation have been upset. Only in a few instances does close inbreeding
produce beneficial effects by removing recessive lethal genes from the genetic
pool. (This may have happened in the case of ancient Egyptian royalty.)
Nevertheless, even in such instances, inbreeding diminishes the energy and
vigor of species that are normally outbred, and reinforces the wisdom and
authority of the Mosaic legislation."
"In
New Testament times, only the man was able to institute divorce proceedings. It
was in reality, however, a rare occurrence, and at that mostly the prerogative
of the rich, since poor men could not afford another dowry or "bride
price" for a subsequent marriage. The accused woman was protected under
the law to the extent that her husband's accusations had to be proved. Thus
some scholars have seen the Matthean explanatory clause as indicating
immorality as the sole ground for divorce, following the contemporary
rabbinical school of Shammai, and not for some purely frivolous cause, as the
school of Hillel taught. If this explanation is correct, Jesus was addressing a
Jewish controversy that had no bearing on God's marriage ideals in the age of
grace, and which Mark and Luke consequently ignored because the exception did
not apply to their audiences of Christian believers."
Since
neither victim nor benefactor needs Farrell's confirmation, why does he gamble
with bringing on a sexual deluge? "First, because millions of people who
are now refraining from touching, holding, and genitally caressing their
children, when that is really part of a caring, loving expression, are
repressing the sexuality of a lot of children and themselves. Maybe this needs
repressing, and maybe it doesn't. My book should at least begin the exploration.
"Second,
I'm finding that thousands of people in therapy for incest are being told, in
essence, that their lives have been ruined by incest.
In fact, their lives have not generally been affected as much by the incest as
by the overall atmosphere. My book should help therapists put incest in perspective."
Farrell also hopes
to change public attitudes so that participants in incest will no longer be
automatically perceived as vitims. "The average incest
participant can't evaluate his or her experience for what it was. As soon as
society gets into the picture, they have to tell themselves it was bad. It's a
self-fulfilling prophecy."
If
pushed to the wall, would Farrell urge incest on families? "Incest is
like a magnifying glass," he summarizes. "In some circumnstances it
magnifies the beauty of a relationship, and in others it magnifies the trauma.
I'm not recommending incest between parent and child, and especially not
between father and daughter. The great majority of fathers can grasp the
dynamics of positive incest 'intellectually'. But in a society that encourages
looking at women in almost purely sexual terms, I don't believe they can
translate this understanding into practice."
Pomeroy
speculates that incest occurs most frequently at the two extremes of society,
since rich and poor tend to be less affected by sexual taboos. He eschews
elaborate interpretations of the impulse that drives mothers and fathers and
sisters and brothers into bed with each other. "Sex
is fun," he explains. "That's the overriding factor. You can't
overlook that sex is pleasurable enough to overrule this terrific taboo in some
cases."
This
reporter retorted that he, too, endorsed the fun of sex but wouldn't dream of
incest with any of his three daughters. "Perhaps you wouldn't because
you've been fathering too much -- wiping their noses, changing their diapers,
and so forth," Pomery replied. "The fathering principle kills the sex
impulse. It certainly does for me. I wouldn't consider sleeping with my
daughter, although I've given it much thought and even talked to her about it.
And she said to me, 'You're a great father, but you don't turn me on either.'"
From http://www.libchrist.com/bible/child.html
A
13-Year-Old Who Enjoyed His "Abuse"
This is clear
that, "any other command" would also include incest commands of the
past seen through the eyes of the law of love. If your actions violate the law
of love, then it is bad. Many
commands are misunderstood why they came about and sometimes things are lost in
translation and wording or in man made wrong definitions, so to solve any
confusion by judging everything with the eyes of law of love. Let the law of
love be your rule book. Christians
are judged by the law of love, Jas 2:12.
Jas 2:12 –
"So whenever you speak, or whatever you do, remember that you will be
judged by the law of love, the law that set you free."
Micah 6:8 The Lord has told you, human, what is good; he has
told you what he wants from you: to do what is right to other people, love
being kind to others, and live humbly, obeying your God.
Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them
that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and
conscience is defiled.
Ro 14:20 - For meat destroy not the work of God. All things
indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Romans 14 Grace vs Law and your
individual freedoms http://inkaboutit.homestead.com/Romans14.html
1Co 10:23 – All things are lawful for me, but all things are
not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
2Co 5:17 - Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new
creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (note: we are new creations similar to
Adam and Eve was a new creation of God nude and no shame. They also under a
similar law of love)
Ga 6:15 - For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor
uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
Acts 10:13 Then a voice said to Peter, "Get up, Peter;
kill and eat." 14 But Peter said, "No, Lord! I have never eaten food
that is unholy or unclean." 15 But the voice said to him again, "God
has made these things clean so don't call them 'unholy'!" 16 This happened
three times (Note: this was not
only about food, but almost everything.)
Ga 5:14 - For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in
this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
2Jo 1:6 - Love means doing what God has commanded us, and he
has commanded us to love one another, just as you heard from the beginning.
1Co 14:1 - Let love be your highest goal, …
From http://www.libchrist.com/bible/child.html
A 13-Year-Old Who Enjoyed His "Abuse"
Major research on sexuality and the Bible and Sexually Liberated Christians. God make every detail of our sexuality and said it was very good. God make every detail of animal sexuality and said it was good. http://inkaboutit.homestead.com/index6.html
Jesus said "My yoke is
easy".
One Savior--Jesus Christ, One God--our creator God, One Command-- go and tell everyone, One law to follow-- the law of love (the whole law is fulfilled in one law-- the law of love), One heaven-Jesus went to prepare a place for us, One hell-- for non-believers, One heaven- for believer, One work to do--to trust in Christ. http://inkaboutit.homestead.com/one.html
